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psammead- 12-18-2007
All of them? Even End of Days? And Day One? I thought those were two of the better episodes. I get the impression that there'll be quite a change of tone for season two since the whole 'we're grown-up and that means lots of swearing and violence but not really' thing didn't go down well with anyone.

Gwynevere1- 12-19-2007
QUOTE (psammead @ December 19, 2007 12:50 am)
All of them? Even End of Days? And Day One?

Yes. I thought the first twenty and last five minutes of "End of Days" were good -- shame the episode was twice that length. I hated the Stay Puffed Marshmellow Demon, Gwen's characterization being all over the place, and the Jack=Jesus anvils that were crashing down on my head.
Also, while I guessed that they were setting up Jack and Owen to come to some sort of blows by the end of the season since "Day One," I never thought that Owen had such rage in him towards Jack that he would continue to pump bullets into his boss. It was particularly disappointing, considering that Owen actually had a decent character arc going up to that point.
Not to mention that the entire team was just plain DUMB. Why are these people part of an elite world-savig force? I could deal with them being selfish and wanting the people they loved back. It wouldn't make them nice people, but, at least, they would be interesting. However, Bilis might as well have put up a sign in flashing, neon red lights that said "This Is a Trap," and they didn't get it. Even after they should have known the vision were fake. Even after Jack told them it was a trap. Idiots.

As for "Day One," I already hated it when it was an episode of Angel, the name of which I can't remember ("Lonely Hearts"?). At least, if they're going to rip-off Mutant Enemy, they might as well steal from the good episodes, like "Greeks Bearing Gifts" did with "Earshot."

Plus, "Cyberbabe" was the worst hour of television I've ever sat through that didn't involve Miracle Snow, and "42" is my least favorite episode of New Who.
There's also Chibnall's serious issues with women, which grate on me, making them sex objects ("Day One," "Cyberbimbo"), incompetent ("Day One"), hysterical screamers ("42" - Seriously? What would make him think that Martha would break down as a damsel in distress, who needed her manly Doctor to rescue her?), meat ("Countrycide"), or irrational and overly emotional ("End of Days"). I would probably skip his episodes, except that James Marsters is guest starring in two of them (the other two I might intentionally miss, though).

GreyDuck- 12-19-2007
For what it's worth (and while it lasts) you can crank up the volume knob and catch the BBCA Torchwood S2 trailer... complete with strong indications about the season's arc-thread. Huh.

psammead- 12-19-2007
The BBC Torchwood website is very careful not to mention Martha as part of the team. I'm going to believe that she really is working for UNIT like all the fanboys are saying and we can finally have the Brigadier/Captain Jack controntation we all want.

Gwynevere1- 12-19-2007
QUOTE (GreyDuck @ December 19, 2007 01:27 pm)
complete with strong indications about the season's arc-thread. Huh.

Which you will totally be willing to share with those of us at work, where YouTube is blocked... *puppy eyes*

Scarlettfish- 12-19-2007
QUOTE

Plus, "Cyberbabe" was the worst hour of television I've ever sat through that didn't involve Miracle Snow, and "42" is my least favorite episode of New Who.


Agreed completely. Except that I would put "Countrycide" up there with the Cyberbabe. That was just weird and bad and all sorts of odd. It was so bad it took away a lot of my enthusiasm for Torchwood.

GreyDuck- 12-19-2007
QUOTE (Gwynevere1 @ December 19, 2007 03:21 pm)
QUOTE (GreyDuck @ December 19, 2007 01:27 pm)
complete with strong indications about the season's arc-thread. Huh.

Which you will totally be willing to share with those of us at work, where YouTube is blocked... *puppy eyes*

You don't need to wield those puppydog eyes at me... not that I mind all that much. *g*

Basically, it looks like we're getting a good old-fashioned pod-people-style alien invasion plot. "When do they arrive?" "They're already here." Huh, really now.

psammead- 12-19-2007
I have to say that there were many things wrong with Torchwood but using existing sci fi cliches and plot devices really wasn't one of the things that bothered me since every single sci fi writer ever has done it ever since HG Wells and Jules Verne. And since I've never seen Angel, I wouldn't even care if they'd used the same scripts.

Having recently watched it all again, I did thing it stood up better than I had expected (even Cyberwoman showed the unexpected consequences of actions in a way that Who season 2 was meant to but didn't actually manage) though I do hope RTD has had a few more of his famous 'tone meetings' this time round so we don't get 'Martha learning to shoot just like Gwen did' (because Brits don't really go for that and it's not really very Whoniversey to depend on guns) or 'unrequited sexual passion between, well, anyone' because if it's really meant to be 'Doctor Who for Grown Ups' then let then act like grown ups and just get on with it. Offscreen if necessary. But cliches aren't a problem - as has been said many many times, there aren't many ways you can vary 'We go to them, they come to us, they were here already!'


bbridges- 12-19-2007
It isn't that Torchwood used all the old sci-fi cliches, it's that they did it so very badly. S1 contains some of the most boring episodes I've ever watched. And "Cyberwoman" and "Random Shoes" are some of the very worst episodes. It's not because they are cliches (though that doesn't help) it's just that they aren't entertaining.

I'm really only watching next season because I love Martha.

Scarlettfish- 12-20-2007
Yeah, I have no problems with Torchwood reusing old sci-fi cliches (even ripping directly off Buffy - there are way worse things to rip off!), it's just that the writing was awful sometimes. The episodes I mentioned above - Cyberwoman and Countrycide - were just such dismal writing efforts that I was embarrassed for the cast.

psammead- 12-20-2007
I liked Random Shoes though it suffered in comparison with Love and Monsters, plus I couldn't work out why the hero had a different accent from the rest of his family. I did hate Countrycide but I don't know whether that's because I can't bear violence or because it was a terrible episode (probably a combination of both). But I though Cyberwoman stood up to a second viewing very well.

The real mistake I thought in the season arc was hiring Indira Varma for just two episodes. That particular plot line would have been much stronger if Susie had been in more episodes before she went psycho - as it was, I'd practically forgotten who she was when she turned up again and her going postal in the first place wasn't shocking as we didn't get to know her.

Though I'm sure Torchwood did borrow directly from Buffy (it was originally devised as an Angel-clone even before Doctor Who was recommissioned), I can't believe that the same Buffy plots weren't borrowed in the first place. Maybe I'm odd, but I don't care anyway - it's like when everyone (even Ace!) complained that Silver Nemesis had the same plot device as Remembrance of the Daleks, two stories earlier, and I didn't even notice. I guess I watch for the settings and the characters and the pretty rather than for the actual plots.

isiscloud- 12-21-2007
QUOTE
Though I'm sure Torchwood did borrow directly from Buffy (it was originally devised as an Angel-clone even before Doctor Who was recommissioned), I can't believe that the same Buffy plots weren't borrowed in the first place. Maybe I'm odd, but I don't care anyway - it's like when everyone (even Ace!) complained that Silver Nemesis had the same plot device as Remembrance of the Daleks, two stories earlier, and I didn't even notice. I guess I watch for the settings and the characters and the pretty rather than for the actual plots.

Good, I'm not crazy because I thought that it was a lot like Buffy/Angel as I was watching #13 this afternoon. I like Torchwood, but have never gotten into Dr. Who. A friend says the current ones aren't like the old versions. It helps that John Barrowman is in it.

psammead- 01-02-2008
Starts on Wednesday 16th January - and two weeks later on BBC America. Hurrah!

Gwynevere1- 01-03-2008
Extended Season Two Trailer - Now with added Gay Agenda!

pulsating brain- 01-03-2008
And Martha! Who will hopefully kick some competence into them.

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